Youngstown’s burning … again
Youngstown — Posted on October 31, 2009 at 1:49 pmWe were carving pumpkins just east of downtown last weekend in a converted warehouse space. After buying the warehouse, the owner carried out carts and carts of dirt, over time converting the thousands of square feet into live-work artist space. In the process, the walls were decorated with found objects from Youngstown’s history through the years. An urban pioneer created one of Youngstown’s great gathering spaces from an available warehouse.
Last night the Mahoning Valley Historical Society held a bash at the new Historical Center at Fifth and Federal. Tours took visitors through the first floor and the ballroom, telling slightly scandalous tales from notable deaths–both accidental and intentional–using various rooms and spaces to stage grim scenes of haunted history. From Good Humor’s Harry Burt to Ross Radio to a plentiful and flexible space to showcase all facets of the Valley’s story.
We see the vacant buildings all around us. What is missing (and what was in evidence in these cases) is the vision and wherewithal to transform them into their next incarnation. Which brings us to Wick Park.
Some enterprising residents were discussing and planning how to resurrect 259 Park Avenue and realize its potential. The homes around Wick Park are, in some cases, barely hanging on. Some will undoubtedly come down. But there are many that offer great potential. 259 Park Avenue is one such structure. Or I should say, was.
In the last two weeks, the Historic Wick Park District has taken a hit. On the morning of October 21, around 4:30am, the estate at 259 Park Avenue facing Wick Park went up in flames. I spoke with students at the Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity around the corner on Pennsylvania Avenue–whose view looks out through a clearing to the Park Avenue home–who said they were taking a study break from a late night session when they came outside to see the flames “shooting thirty feet in the air.” As far as they knew, they were the first to call in the fire.
259 Park Avenue, photographed in 1989 by Northside Citizens Coalition. -Courtesy Mahoning Valley Historical Society
Now, we’ll never see the home’s potential. A place ripe for the urban entrepreneur has been wiped away. A devastating and irreplaceable loss. Cityscape Director Sharon Letson lays out the case:
The total loss of this mansion to arson has an impact that is far greater than it may first appear: You will agree that the beautiful stock of homes that surrounds Wick Park is what gives it much of its appeal. Each of these homes, while important on its own, plays a role in giving the neighborhood a value that is greater than the sum of its parts. That is to say, the loss of any of the structures around Wick Park, whether an old mansion or Stambaugh Auditorium, has detrimental effects on the park as a whole.
None should accept this as a matter of course. This area has been identified by several organizations (YSU, CityScape, Raymond John Wean Foundation, Defend Youngstown, St. Elizabeth Health Center, WNI) as a key area for renovation, and each has invested considerable time, resources and planning to begin that process. Acts of arson such as those seen in the past week severely compromise those efforts in an immeasurable way.
We have all shown in the past that we are a group that is unwilling to sit back and allow these violations to occur. Instead, we are a group that takes pride in playing an active role in protecting our community, our investments. What next? What Actions do we need to take in order to make it crystal clear that we will NOT tolerate this activity in an area that is so vital to the ongoing success of our community.
*We have secured the Wick Park Pavilion for an educational meeting for the public at large on Monday, November 9, @ 5:30. During this educational meeting, we will have an informative session with YFD Arson Specialist Alvin Ware, William D’Avignon and some other invited guests—to be arranged.
*In the interim please join us for an agenda planning lunch next week onWednesday, November 4, at 12:00 noon at the YMCA room 204.
Please feel free to forward this invitation to both the agenda planning session and even more importantly the Educational session on Monday, November 9th at Wick Park Pavilion. We need to take an active role to send the message that this rash of arson activity will not be tolerated. Please RSVP to Youngstowncityscapedirector@sbcglobal.net
Early on the morning of October 29, 841 Pennsylvania Avenue was set ablaze. The SAE student with whom I spoke estimated it was 2am in the morning when he saw the house burning and called the fire department. He had just been out a half hour earlier with no sign of activity there. The YFD responded with everything it could: nine trucks (all but one) and 35-36 firefighters. They entered a neighboring house, hoping to save it, but the winds caught both adjacent homes afire, and the firefighters pulled back with the recognition the homes were on the demolition list and a new mission to contain the fire from spreading further to inhabited structures.
A firefighter I spoke with suggested the fire could have been set with the goal of exposing the salvageable materials in the home for later poaching, though he acknowledged the fires typically melt available copper and other metals. Blazes are sometimes set to cover a thief’s tracks. Another theory I’ve heard point to construction companies who are calling the city offering their demolition and clean-up services for free–with the unspoken expectation of cashing in on the building materials laying around.
If it’s not urgent enough to go to all lengths to support Wick Park, some history from Steeltown U.S.A. by John Russo and Sherry Linkon of the Center for Working-Class Studies about what these kinds of events mean to the city and surrounding areas as a whole.
During the years after deindustrialization … local firefighters claim that Youngstown had one of the highest per capita arson rates nationally for almost four decades. Geographer David Stephens found that between 1960 and 1980, during a period when some areas of Youngstown were experiencing “urban renewal,” arson increased sixfold in the city. In the 1980s, as the city’s population dropped, its economic base crumbled, unemployment and business failures increased, and the real estate market crashed, Youngstown averaged 2.3 fires daily with an estimated dollar loss between $1.75 million and $9 million annually. In the 1990s, Youngstown averaged 310 arson fires with an estimated loss of $2 million annually.
… The large number of arson fires raised suspicions of insurance fraud. Commercial and residential fires in the 1980s cost insurers millions of dollars, including claims from many failing local businesses. … [I]nsurance companies raised the cost of home insurance in the city dramatically, redlined poor neighborhoods, or insured properties only at their “actual cash value.”
… Firefighters point to the fact that, lacking a public outcry, the only conviction involving demolitions was the individual who coordinated demolitions for the city. He was convicted of arson in 1990.
… Why would a town that had long prided itself on high rates of home ownership watch its housing stock be destroyed by arson? The answer lies in deindustrialization. Economic decline led to unemployment and foreclosures. Lacking disposable income to maintain older homes, some individuals allowed their homes to fall into disrepair. Their home was their only major asset, yet the real estate market had stagnated. Without the hope of selling their houses, some turned to arson for the insurance money, the only way they could see to get something out of the house before it was devalued even further. In some cases, as people left town to seek work or lost their homes or businesses to foreclosure, buildings became unsold empty shells. Firefighters recalled incidents where two or three buildings in a neighborhood burned at once, in so-called clearinghouse fires, which often occurred in the spring when neighbors saw dilapidated housing at its worst. Citizens knew that the foreclosure process was lengthy and that it was impossible for the Youngstown Street Department to keep up with demolitions, especially in the winter when they could not spray to keep the lead down or when demolition teams joined the street crew doing shift work removing snow. Consequently, the city had a backlog of demolitions. But when a house burned down, it became a hazard—open basement, debris, rats, and so on—and thus became a priority to be cleaned up. In essence, arson served as a mechanism to speed up the demolition process. Certainly, residents did not want arson fires, but they did not want vacant houses that would become eyesores either. In some areas, then arson may have seemed like a new version of urban renewal.
We have to work with the city to execute a plan for the orderly demolition of vacant structures. If we want to take matters into our own hands, we can do that by securing vacant structures, clearing plantings that might obstruct views of individuals lurking around the perimeter of the structures. We can add security lighting around important structures to insure safety. We can not allow arson to be used as an accelerant for demolition.
Come to the meeting at the Wick Park Pavilion Monday, November 9, @ 5:30pm. We must create solutions.
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there was another fire recently, off ohio across from Petra (which has been mysteriously closed for a while). an older woman with many dogs and cats had lived in the house for years, definitely as long as i’ve lived on lora. when i saw the flames, i ran over to make sure she wasn’t in the house. the neighbors said she moved out and went to a nursing home a few months ago, and all the cats and dogs were out, which was a relief. the house was still filled with stuff and garbage and wasn’t being maintained, which led to the probably-electrical fire. many neighbors came out to make sure the woman was safe, making me glad to live here.
Sarah, I lived on Ohio at the end of Lora when I was at YSU. When I drive up Lora these days, I think we’d be well served to organize the community to come together and board up and secure several houses on the street. What are your thoughts? Has there been any talk about this on the block?
Man… I always loved that home. So beautiful…
I can’t begin to express just how saddened I am of the fires, especially 259. I walked around that home and it was my coworker, Howard who was explaining to our group about how that house still stood a chance- “Because the owners cared enough to board it up.”
I also lived on Pennsylvania avenue, actually the last group of people to live in my house- 236. The houses across the street- two sat vacant due to our corrupt landlord-he took all of our security deposits and ran. He owed the city water department, gas company and electric companies tons of money. We were allowed to stay, as granted by the city due to having the rent+ utilities agreement. Just my side lasted, the guys across the street were forced to move because their utilities were shut off.
Those homes (including mine) on Pennsylvania are still up for demolition.
Howard and his brother had a great duplex just a couple of streets over, back in the day. Who was your corrupt landlord, by the way?
I love Youngstown and everytime we have an arson fire that destroys a house, a little bit of our history is lost. That said, as a firefighter, of greater concern to me is the risk that firefighters take every time some a**hole decides to play pyro and light up a vacant. In Youngstown, at least 20 firefighters are responding with lights and sirens to each structure fire. In my jurisdiction, where staffing levels are a little better and we send more trucks, it’s at least 33 firefighters en route. It doesn’t matter the jurisdiction; firefighters respond to all fires, vacant or occupied. The risks are often the same for occupied and vacant structures. Firefighters die in traffic accidents, in building collapses or flashovers, and in many cases, those are in response to a vacant arson fire. In Detroit, a city often compared to Youngstown, Firefighter Walter Harris was killed when a vacant house fire collapsed on him in Nov 2008. Stairs are missing, wood is rotted, structures weakened and YFD firefighters will often have to enter these structures to search for vagrants. Each time we lose a vacant to an arson fire, we lose a little history, but firefighters always have the risk of losing a little more.
Thanks for your input, Joe. Great to get your perspective as a firefighter on the situation.
I spoke with Bill D’avignon last friday morning. He told me that he has made arrangements with the park department to salvage and store the limestone at Park ave., for future Wick Park construction. I informed him that unlike most antique sandstone used mostly in old historic structures, those stones I was told are rare limestone, I know they are not sandstone.
If the park dept. doesn’t move fast enough, someone let me know cause I offered to bring machinery and a dump truck down to help save some history for Wick park.
Have you heard about any follow up on this, Ron? I’d be happy to send a note to the city as well.
Tyler,
I spoke again with Bill D’avignon and he thought the parks dept. was there today. I went by and no one was there. Bill is doing all he can to get the stone stored, but it is up to the Parks dept.
I stopped by and looked the devastation over and moving the stone is going to be major. If the Parks can’t expend the resourse, my small crew can move it, but I will need help.
Also, in my daily business interfacing with the various tax cert. holders, I had a conversation about the “Van Sickle” holdings around Wick Park. I brainstormed with Bill about this and I think we may have a stategy to tackle those properties. I will defer to Bill to expound.
One thing that I noticed was that the carriage house sits on one of the three lots of 259 Park and could be easily converted to a nice dwelling for an urban pioneer.
I had tried unsuccessfully on different occasions to get pemission from the city to save the stone with no response. The limestone and sandstone caps had value that could have been used to help in restoration of carrage house. I think we should open a class action lawsuit against absetee landlords and hold their feet to the fire to bring the structuresup to code or have them forcibly taken away. I will be at the next meeting on Monday to be held at the Unitarian Church. We as a group need a constant dialog with the city. I have identified 12 problem properties surrounding the park 3 major properties that need to be addressed very soon. I have done the research and know the owners. The large stone house on Broadway is owned by Robert Van Sickle who also owned 259 Park Ave. I’d had been in contact with him many times throughout the year and he has no interest in saving his structures saying”he just as soon see them burn to the ground than put any money in them”. He also has 3 house on Illinois Ave that are starting to fall apart. These and 2 other properties need immediat attention and the rest will fall into place.
BTW, over a year ago, I introduced Phil Kidd to the owner of Park ave.. This owner also owns the large stone structure on broadway and group homes on Elm and Illinois I believe. Although the superior lien was an IRS encumbrance, if someone was interested in the structures, it maybe tricky, but these homes maybe secured reasonably.
Great per (per usual), Tyler. I hope everyone can attend the meeting on the 9th. We have some serious business to get down to.
Thanks, Phil. See you there.
Wow, what a great house and what a tragedy. How does one get ahead of that curve in terms of finding potential buyers to save that property? I just dont know the answer.
EP
Eric, Over a year ago, I introduced Phil Kidd to the owner of 259 Park (Van Sickle), and two other mansions surrounding Wick Park. At that time the structures were newly vacated, the urgency was the eminent vandalism. An examination of the title was performed but sadly no one seemed to care. I knew then and now how to get ahead of the curve, but it is a mystery to me why no one takes action.
Although my frustration level is peaking, I’ll outline the simplicity of marketing these properties again.
Most of the boarded up historic homes in Youngstown are encumbered with clouds on the title that render them unmarketable using the conventional approach in RE conveyance. However, a proven tool exist to clear the title for a nominal fee, forfeiting the property by way of the tax certificate. This action, since there is one owner for the three mansions can be accomplished for $2500 only. I should know, my investment group accomplished this on 300 parcels and returned a significant amount of these on the tax paying rosters. Another example of this method was the assembling of 120 lots to form a 25 acre tract on the eastside. Twenty lots were assembled on Merridian road and conveyed to BJ Allen.
I tried to explain this in the meeting this afternoon, but I didn’t get through. I have lived in Youngstown since 1996 and I am tired of inaction and the worsening of our community, in regards to real estate as we all are.
Look, if we acquire those mansions and our investment is only $2500, we can then be in a position to offer let’s say the remaining carriage house (259 Park) to an Urban Pioneer for free if they can show the ability to finance the renovation of the structure. I was taught many years ago by mavens, that anything will sell as long as the price is right. We can offer the mansion on Broadway again, free.
I’ll leave you with this, no one offered another solution, infact it was agreed that we should not offer or advocate one, but let the public respond.
I do not really have time for a charade, I’ll resume securing tax lien properties for my investment group, we just finalized a deal to secure another 32 acres for the taxes owed. Please don’t take this as bloviating, I am trying to help.
Can you clarify your comments, Ron… are you saying that you had the foresight to identify the problem, but it’s Phil Kidd’s and everyone else’s fault nothing was done about it?
I don’t mean to keep picking at you, but silence implies consent, and when I hear you suggest that you’ve got all the answers but no one is listening, I want to be sure I’m hearing correctly.
If this is all so easy to accomplish, why didn’t you get it done? Why is it someone else’s responsibility? Who exactly is to blame… the City? There are thousands of properties in this situation and many of them as historic. Surely you acknowledge the scale of the challenge?
Tyler, you are not hearing me corectly and this isn’t a blame game. We are all failing here, including myself. Unless we are all in denial, we can look around and see that in the last ten years, the blight problem is getting worse.
I have brought the scale down to three properties surrounding Wick Park, your subject matter. YOU were the one who suggested “securing the structures and cleaning them of vegetation, lighting,etc.” Phil, suggested in the interim obtaining the dwellings and providing to end users. I simply am providing experience on how to secure the property for redistribution.
And as to your question why haven’t I done it? I’ll tell you this, we live on the same street, let’s meet and I’ll show you and you show me accomplishments, fair enough?
Ron:
You and I and everyone else knows the situation regarding the VanSickle properties. It wasn’t due to inaction. When we explored the lien situation, we found there was significant IRS liens that would need to be cleared in order to proceed. If the lien situation is now doable, we need to examine this as an option for, perhaps the 259 Park Ave., however, when it comes to the housing, the fundamental problem is, is that we are group of concerned citizens and nothing more. At best, we can organize, identify the issues, conduct the clean-ups, board up houses, challenge landlords/homeowners/tenants to clean up their act, push for code enforcement, identify crime, plan improvement projects and events, conduct monthly meetings, welcome new folks to the neighborhood, etc. However, none of us have the time, ability or resources to acquire, rehabilitate or market/manage property of this scale and/or that requires this level of repair. Private investors are reluctant to invest the amount of resources needed for proper renovations due to the fact that they will likely not see an equal (at best) return on their investment.
What is needed is non-profit community development corporation capacity to operate in the Wick Park neighborhood which would be charged with property acquisition, rehabilitation, vacant lot management, neighborhood marketing, etc. This was exactly what the North Side Citizens Coalition did until they (in fact, they owned 2 of the 3 homes that burnt to the ground on the Pennsylvania Ave). If they were still operating, half the problems with housing you see today would have never existed. We likely wouldn’t be having this online conversation. Click below for program overview. If you want a comprehensive copy of their plan email me (phil@mvorganizing.org):
http://cfweb.cc.ysu.edu/northsidecoalition/default.htm
This is what needs to be created (either through Wick Neighbors Inc., Youngstown Neighborhood Development Corporation or a similar entity). If not, we are spinning our wheels because none of us have the time or ability to take on what needs should and needs to be done by a well resourced and dedicated staff working full-time to raise hundreds of thousands of dollars for the acquisition and rehabilitation of these properties. Fortunately, these discussion are happening among those groups, however, there needs to be more public outcry. On that note, if you want to know what you need to fight for in the interim, it’s this:
1. Attend the public meeting on Monday and demand that Wick Park be recognized by the City of Youngstown as a priority neighborhood. This is important. Accordingly, have the city commit to reserving NSPII funding (if we should receive it in December) for property acquisition (land bank)and rehabilitation of select remaining vacant structures around the Park that are included in the Historic District.
2. Determine an interim strategy for 259 Park Ave. carriage house and property (ex. community improvement non-profit storage area…Treez Please, Grow Youngstown, Youngstown City Scape, Community Tool Shed, etc.). Have the city ensure that the remaining structure of the house on site remains intact so that an interesting re-use can be conducted by neighborhood residents next summer (i.e. a community flower garden, etc.). Ron: This is where your tax lien piece is of importance. If this idea is considered a good one, we’d likely need the city to acquire or a group like CityScape to move on it.
3. Form your neighborhood task force/working group from those that attended the meeting. Establish the next meeting which should be to establish short, medium and long range goals.
4. Attend lobbying day in Columbus Dec. 9th regarding the state wide land bank legislation currently being proposed (see me for details). This is critical for doing something meaningful about property acqusition regarding a neighborhood like Wick Park.
Those are realistic actions items that ordinary concerned citizens can execute in the short term. See you Monday
I will be with all of you “in spirit” on Monday, but unfortunately, 5:30 meetings conflict with my work schedule. (and right now, the general economy dictates work first; community organizing second). Hopefully, future meetings might be scheduled to accommodate those of us who get home later?
Let me add an idea or two, and if they seem worthwhile to anyone, please feel free to suggest them at the meeting.
I was in the insurance business for many years, and it was well understood that when an economy turned bad, and large areas of housing lost their market value, and people were stuck with properties they couldn’t sell, those houses started to burn. This was the primary reason insurance companies “redlined” entire cities. No one liked it, but we understood the economic reasons behind the move.
If there is a way for a neighborhood organization to identify empty or abandoned buildings, and notify any insurance company that was holding a policy on that property to cancel the insurance, this might be a way to eliminate the incentive to burn. Now, given privacy concerns, you probably couldn’t demand to know the specific insurance company on each property – but perhaps the state legislature could establish a program (through the Fair Plan,maybe?) where a master list of insured properties was kept – and where a neighborhood organization could report an abandoned building. Maybe Bob Hagan could help us on this.
I know, that at first glance, it may seem counter-intuitive to eliminate insurance – especially in an area where it is already hard to obtain – but a huge percentage of arsons are for escaping the burden of owning a property that’s lost its market value. Without insurance, though, some owners might feel a little more inclined to care for their investment and a little less inclined to burn it for a quick exit. And insurance companies might just be willing to cooperate. They have to pay out millions each year on this problem.
Beyond this, I think another good possibility would be to form a group of residents who wish to combine the exercise of walking, patroling and inspecting. This could combine the social aspects, with the business. And along with the inspecting process, we need a group of “nags” (yes! I qualify!) to do the actual writing or phoning to homeowners, insurance companies, and public officials, when a property needs to be reported.
And one more thought, before I go off to work – years ago, when I first lived in Youngstown, I attended the Unitarian Church on Elm. There were group homes near the church, and some of the residents would come into the services. While most behaved themselves, there was the occasional disruption – and though nobody wanted to acknowledge it, there were members of the congregation who were very uncomfortable with these people. I believe the group homes by the church are now gone? But I know that the presence of them hurt the area, and caused some people to leave. I still meet people who are put off by the Burdman, worried that their clients are dangerous. And the presence of a trashy looking frat house, on Broadway, is not going to help re-vitalize the area.
So, in addition to inspecting vacant properties, there is a need to keep tabs on the use of these properties. The days of single family ownership of huge houses like these is probably over – but it would be reasonable to expect more responsible use.
And a quick P.S. with regards to 259 Park. Was that building insured? I ask, because, if it was, then before anyone moves the stones to save them, check with the insurance carrier first. An insurance company that pays off on a property, technically owns everything of value left on that property. They probably wouldn’t want the stones, but someone should check anyway.
Hello Phil,
Thank you for your input.
Okay, let me first establish our fundamental differences which maybe the cause of my frustrations. I am from the private sector and a student of history. You and many are from the public sector and this is not a bad thing. However, history reveals to us that the private sector always works in our capitalism society, now abuse of capitalism I agree, is also responsile for recessions and so does big government. So, let’s understand where everyone stands and merge our common goals.
Now, last night and this morning, I have secured an interested investor to help with the Van Sickle property surrounding Wick Park. This proposal requires both the private sector and the public sector. This proposal is doable immediately and I am publicly recording it now for monday’s meeting. I’m going to keep it simple inorder for laypersons understanding.
The private investor is willing to lend approximately $2500 to be used for the legal fees in forfeiting the Van Sickle properties surrounding Wick Park. This loan will be a non recourse loan secured by a blanket first mortgage on the properties. The title to the properties must be held by YNDC, this falls under their mission. The YNDC will agree to provide the properties to capable community organizations or qualified urban pioneers. The window for the following first steps will close on January 31, 2010.
1. The city or YNDC request the tax cert.s from ATF, Optimum and Cintina for community developmet.
2. YNDC retains Atty. Alden Chevlen to forfeit the properties thru the Common Pleas Court of Mahoning county. Atty. Chevlen was the first in the county to forfeit under the new legislature, since then he has done over 200 of them.
3. YNDC issues a press release offering the properties for neighborhood development at less than $1000 for each property free and clear.
Phil, this is how the private sector gets things done. Not to besmirch the public sector, we all need to work together. Remember, I had you speak to Town One Streetscapes and showed you projects that we have accomplished in Poland without government help. The Peterson Park, the Reed Memorial Stairway, Yellow Creek Theatre and I didn’t even show the historic Augdon house that we moved and is now a mansion in Poland. I commend you for going at the larger picture and changing legislature and trying to secure government funding. But history shows us that government is not the answer, capitalism got us out of the last depression.
Furthermore, I have spoken to a city employee who is interested in renovating the carriage house as a residence IF, non-profits are not interested. This person will formally notify YNDC.
I am more than willing to be the worker to get this proposal moving forward and answer any questions from anyone, as long as they have credentials to debunk this process and not just wild diatribe. Call me.
Do I have my history wrong, or wasn’t it the government waging world war ii that got us out of the last depression?
Tyler,
The only proaction we got out of you ,is that you were going to send the city a note on when they plan to salvage the stone, have you done this yet?
WWII, getting us out of the depression, true, but look deeper. I suggest you read Andrew Mellons recent biography, he was the sec. of the treas. 11 years prior to the 30’s. He designed the payment schedule for France, Germany and England which made us the largest creditor nation then. So the government was flush with cash that allowed the great industries to employ and produce. The greatest difference between this depression and the last one, is the government is the largest debtor nation in history, so there will be no funding and yet we keep writing grants.
“The only proaction we got out of you” – you sure have a way with words.
Spoke with City. Stone is being stored at the Street Department for reuse in future landscape projects.
Thanks Tyler, the stones one day may tell a story about us all.
Tyler,
As of 4:30 P.M. , Lyndsey , the Director of City events, says that the stone has not been removed from Park Ave.
Come to think of it, Van Sickle officially owns the property and if something of value was removed, I think he may have damages. I know an emerg. demo. is allowed for a fire structure but, removing valuables might be breaking the law.
Ron: We spoke today so I don’t feel the need to repeat what was discussed. That can and should be done Monday so others can offer input.
Tyler: Thanks for the call to the city. In addition to salvaging the free debris (FYI: it has yet to be removed as of 9am this evening), we need to also make sure that the remaining infrastructure stays in tact in the interim. There are a number of folks interested in incoporating building the garden aspect into it (should it be able to be acquired and not pose a liability).
Also, I need some help tomorrow afternoon between 3:30-5:30pm distributing flyers in the Wick Park neighborhood for the meeting on Monday. If anyone can assist, please contact me at (330) 519-8712 or phil@mvorganizing.org. Thanks.
Tyler,
The name of my old landlord- who at one point owned numerous, (and when I say numerous I mean oh wow… I think at least 10+) properties on Pennsylvania, Illinois, and the surrounding area was Shawn Lustig. He was also in business with another slumlord who owned even more properties and left them for broke- including the apartments that have been revamped on PA (YEAH!).
Although some of this is a bit above my head, I drove down Pennsylvania today. I still care and am willing to help out as much as possible! Please let me know what needs to be done, if there is anyway I can help.
I have great memories from Pennsylvania avenue, and although yes, the Frat house is trashy- I really believe YSU students will find a house near the dorms extremely appealing. There is so much potential for the streets near the Lyden/Cafaro dorms for development for YSU students, making the campus a real college campus (not a commuter campus) and giving some life to those homes.
I am also a past history/historic preservation graduate from YSU and yes, seeing those homes brought back to their true majesty is ideal- but probably not feasible at this point in time. I know for a fact our old house on PA Ave has water damage (I witnessed it), and probably no wiring, plaster, ceilings or pipes left.
There is quite a black market in cities for copper pipes, oak doors, stained glass windows, even glass door knobs. Many, if not all of the homes have been left in a state of no heat, fallen plaster, mold, weakened foundations (due to over grown trees/weeds)…
Bottom line, I think your blog is great- I think Phil, Ray and yourself giving a damn is great as well! We don’t have much time, but there is great potential here. So my question- does anyone know of YSU’s interest? Are they a potential candidate for rebuilding the area? I know, no one wants to look at crappy dorms, but hell, it’s better than watching history burn. Dorms=Students, Students=new residents to Youngstown, spending money, assisting the economy and making Wick park a friendly college area.I loved living there- I had friends in houses all around me and it was a blast!
I travel specifically to Universities and Colleges for my job. We have a University that is growing, giving new life to Youngstown. I say we tap into it.
Megan,
Last summer, I toured many of the houses on PA Ave. in the hopes of buying and restoring one. Of the houses I toured, I was most interested in 833 and 836 because they were the most intact. But, they are all slated for demolition/deconstruction. (It’s probably for the best for me, because they did need so much work) Anyway, I’ve heard there are plans for future development of the west side of PA Ave. by a private developer.
The other reason I’m replying is that Phil Kidd is organizing a group of people interested in this neighborhood. I would encourage you to email him and ask to be on that mailing list.
I know there is new private student housing development across the street from the Madison Ave dorms (Lyden/Cafaro). I’m not sure to what extent the University is engaged in that development. There are parties interested in developing student housing downtown. That is to say, I’m not sure what interest there is in developing student housing that’s not multi-unit, and I’m not sure that additional student-targeted properties will be forthcoming from the University so much as private investment.
Megan, I beg to differ with you on saving these structures as single family dwellings. My home was slated for demo but through hard work and determination I have fullt restored it to its former beauty. I think instead of everyone saying we need to do something about it they should instead purchase a property and save it. It goes a long way in bringing back the neighborhood. Any of you out there who think I am not sincere in saving this are should visit me and my family at 156 Broadway.
Tyler,
One last question, again I’m in the dark… What happened to the Northside Coalition?
The short version, as I understand it, is they brought in management that did not serve them well and left them in a difficult financial situation. Depending on whom you ask, they were already ineffectual because of (a) too much political involvement or (b) the decision to assume property management. I’m not sure about the ins and outs, but my sense is that they’re looking for a new direction, which may come in the form of an entirely different organization coming in to fulfill the NSCC’s original mission.
The NSCC went out because of poor leadership and missuse of funds. I agree with Ron that the best way to save the area is by way of private investment but with the city on the same page as the rest of us as far as enforcing codes and saving historic structures.
Concerning student housing, I can tell you as a student at YSU, who has looked into on and off campus housing that there are basically two categories of housing;
On-campus University owned, well-kept, but very expensive, or off-campus privately owned, less-than stellar quality landlords, and cheap rent. The only exception I’ve seen is my former landlord Adam Rutushkin whose property is at 224 W. Wood Street. Great guy, great property, highly recommended.
All that being said, there is a need for more student housing, and as far as I know, the apartments on Madison are privately built and operated, but is tied to the University similar to the Courtyard apartments.
There was a plan to build apartments where the CVS is going on Fifth, but the University balked at the idea supposedly b/c students crossing Fifth avenue to get to campus would be a safety risk.
Nevertheless, housing development is a good thing, but more should be done. Ohio, Michigan and Pennsylvania Avenues could be a great “Greek Village” area for YSU, but that sort of project would require quite a bit of investment.
Tyler… MahoningValley.info is offline right now… do you have an email address I can send some photos? Another house was arsoned on Pennsylvania Ave the other night. I caught it on video tape and
took some quick stills (low res, but…) with my camcorder.
I’d like to get these out to everyone, along with some photos I took today – houses that need to be re-boarded before something else happens
to them…
Thanks, Allan. I’ll send you my e-mail and would be very glad to post your photos and video.
What house was on fire on PA Avenue?! Does anyone know? I’ll have to drive by…
The green house caught fire. There have been 6 houses burned or torn down on Penn. Ave. in the last month. Also one on Park Ave. At this rate we can extend Wick Park to Madison Ave.
The green house- as in 836, in between the first abandoned house which is like a tan/mauve color, and int between a teal/green house with a second floor porch?
That’s my old college house. :-(
Tyler,
Forgive me- but i had a bit of a brainstorm the other day, and it probably came out of watching way too much DIY network and This Old House… Ok- so we know the city is tearing down many of these homes and we (well i know for a fact) there is a black market that consists of ripping out the copper pipes, leaded glass pane windows, you know- anything of value and selling it to eager builders/buyers…
And while watching DIY the big push these days is recycled building materials…
Is there anyway to go into these homes prior to demolition, take out the worth while components, sell them, offer them, and give the money to the city or a nonprofit for rehab of the neighborhoods?
I know it’s crazy, but I think there’s potential there, as long as the right people know what to look for. Or this could be entirely illegal and have a ton of paperwork in the way.
Again, this came out of a mix of DIY+this old house+ and probably me huffing too much Murphy’s oil scrubbing the never ending hardwood…
Megan, that doesn’t sound crazy to me at all. In fact, that’s why the city recently received a grant for $39,000 to create a strategy for incorporating deconstruction into the city’s approach to tackling blighted properties. Part of the idea is recognizing that there are so many valuable resources in the houses that should be leveraged during dismantling. You’ve got the right idea!
I love the idea of the items being resold to DYI’ers in the Valley. Its no different than when you buy 2 ‘73 Pontiac Catalinas: one to restore and one for a parts car for the restored one.
Here is a thought….A group of people put their money together, buy a house, gut the interior, restore the exterior, and market the property to a potential buyer who can refinish the interior as they see fit or hire our co-op to do the interior. Then we reinvest in another and another………It worked in German Village in Columbus Ohio….one house at a time till the whole area caught on and the rest is history.
I’d be interested in this idea, but I have my own plans for a house on the north side, so I can’t help financially, at this time. But, I would be willing to donate my services as a design professional, and – probably more valuable – elbow grease.
Exactly! The majority will take a trained eye and elbow grease! I am volunteering myself to this endeavour as well, plus i love old homes and being able to view them, and possibly take some parts out that can be saved… Oh it will be great! Just the other day, driving around my neighborhood (near Rush and Erie) the city was in the process of ripping down a few decrepit apartments, in the pile of rubble I saw bookcases, leaded glass windows- so many items of value! Also, recycled hardwood is HUGE for materials- these houses have TONS of them!
So there are a lot of these homes we can’t save, but there are parts that deserve a second life.
Count me in for this project! I’ll drag my other half with me as well- he is now a huge old-home lover such as myself..
oh and I forgot to add my favorite quote, “Say and do something to help the situation. It doesn’t take any brains to complain.”
Hello all, I have a home if any one is interested in putting in equal time and money. Lets do it “privatly” and move on. We don’t need gov’t funds to slow and drag us down. I’ve successfully did 2 homes this way and are now private single family homes in this area. It won’t happen overnight but this will snowball and before you know the park will look great and the surrounding streets will start to catch up. Witout homeowners making up a majority of the population it will never come back. I’m sorry to say this but it is the simple truth. Rentals do not have a stake in the neighborhood because they as transient and can pickup and leave anytime. Homeownership leads to a heathy neighborhood and community.This is what I will continue to focus my energy and time doing.
Rob,
Good idea and I again will help acquiring the Van Sickle remaining structures.
Something to consider though, is that whoever takes control of the properties will be exposed to liability and citations from the city. If you propose to leave the interior gutted, the city can haul someone into the housing court and order immediate rectification.
In regards to deconstruction as discussed here, I can up the ante. The Nevel Temple has informed me that they have several structures on the Northside that need to be demo’d. If you guys are serious, I can ask them if we can deconstruct. I will help by bringing in machinery.
836 is NOT the house that burned, though the fire dept. broke into the house to keep it from burning down. The house next door – to the south – burned. But, 836 is definitely on the city’s demo list.
A group of people are meeting this Saturday to do some cleaning up and boarding up of some homes in the neighborhood. If it’s legal, I wonder if some of the group could go into this house and salvage some of the items worth saving before it also falls victim to arson or demolition?
J.R.,
It is illegal to remove property from structures that are not owned. However, D’Avignon talked about “receivership” having the authority to be protected in any investment into a property. I would think that this would mean clean up , boarding up and anything that improves the condition. As far as removing anything of value, I think you should call D’avignon.
I guess I knew that it would be illegal. But, if I have time, I’ll try to give Bill a call tomorrow to see what he has to say.
I’m just finishing up a biography of Abraham Lincoln by Thomas, during his time a new political party sprung up and was labelled “The Do Nothing Party.” It appears this party was concieved right before the country spiralled into civil war.
“Attention, Attention, Attention!!!”
The good congregation of Temple Nevel is to begin the DECONSTRUCTION of 1000 Bryson and 139 Park. The congregation of Temple Nevel will provide volunteers to recycle sandstone foundation, various lumber, fixtures and hardware. All community volunteers are invited to make this a green project and be cost effective.
Interested individuals who wish to join the “Doer’s club” can contact Ron or Rick at 330 788 8009
* Members of the old “Do Nothing Party” need not waste productive time.
Ron, not sure why you continue to antagonize. We can all be on the same team. In fact, some two dozen residents worked together this morning to clean up the vacant structure at 264 Broadway. It was very productive, and we would have welcomed your participation. I’m sure these same doers will be open to participating in upcoming deconstruction events, too.
I am looking at buying a house on Tod Ln. And having a Bed and Breakfast. I am not from OH. I’m from Texas. Is there a market in Youngstown for that type of bussiness? I read so much about the town and not really sure what to believe. Good and bad. Tell me what you think. Can it be a very long term deal or short lived. What is the crime like on that side of town. I am in San Antonio and it is the 7th largest city in the U.S. We have crime, lots of murders and tons of houses falling down. But people are surviving.
We restuctured the city and it is now thriving.
Carol,
Youngstown is a city on it’s way back from the bottom,
and just like most cities it has good neighborhoods
and bad neighborhoods.
The neighborhood you are referring to is still pretty
nice, but you should exercise due diligence and
come see the city firsthand before making a final
decision.
There was a gentleman a couple years ago who started
a B&B venture in one of the mansions at Fifth Ave.
and Tod Lane (the Burt Printz mansion) but the
business failed because he was unable to attract
enough clientele to make a go of it. The cost of
utilities for an 8,000 square foot mansion is
very high here due to the cold winters.
The Printz mansion was well cared for over the
years and previous owners poured a lot of work
and money into the place. This gentleman let
me do a photo shoot for my website, which is
dedicated to the historic homes and buildings
in Youngstown.
Just click on my name in this response and the
link will take you to my website. Follow the
link for Historic Homes, then follow the link
for Burt Printz mansion – it’s a shining example
of the beautiful homes left by our predecessors
who lived during Youngstown’s boom times of the
early 20th century, and the interior is absolutely
breathtaking.
As a former Youngstown citizen who moved away for
job opportunities, and recently decided to invest
in historic properties in the Wick Park neighborhood, my advice to you would be this:
Buy a property closer to Youngstown State University. The neighborhoods just north of
YSU are chock full of historic homes that are
more than large enough to accomodate a B&B, and
your chances of maintaining a high occupancy
rate will be much higher due to the historic
district’s proximity to cultural institutions
like Stambaugh Auditorium, the park, and the
downtown area.
The quality of materials and workmanship that
went into these homes is of a caliber that would
be financially out of reach for most people, if
they were to try and replicate them at today’s
prices – not to mention the fact that they are
literally built like Sherman Tanks.
Should you decide to open a B&B here, we all wish
you every success in your new venture.
Just got done doing a preliminary observation on 1000 Bryson for deconstruction. The building is an old brick fourplex. It seems to have greek revival porches and sandstone window sills and lentils.
The porches have smaller columns and can be salvaged, years ago, the antique dealers loved them. The sandstone is machined cut and also might be in demand. I need to enter the building, but my guess is that the building is true brick construction and not veneer; there is enough brick for recyling and can supply an entire new structure.