Board up and clean up Saturday morning 10am at Wick Park
Events — Posted on December 4, 2009 at 3:36 pmYou are hereby invited to come out to Wick Park Saturday morning (yes, tomorrow, December 5) at 10am to invest your time in securing and cleaning up properties. We’ll meet at 264 Broadway. Look forward to seeing you there. From the organizers:
“Depending on the turn-out and weather, we will tackle as many lots as we can. Our goal is to improve the appearance of the lots in hopes of deterring criminal activity, attracting new and old to the north side, etc.
At our meeting on Nov 23rd, a bunch of eager folks volunteered to bring tools; if you’re one of them- Thank You! I am bringing a clip board for us all to log what tools we’ve brought so that we get them back at the end of the day. It may also be a good idea to put some identifying mark on your tools so that they are not confused w/ your neighbors’.”
Feel free to stroll down Elm Street to the Unitarian Church at noon for a potluck. Bring a dish to share.
Recognition goes to the City for boarding up three properties on Bryson, two on Park, two on Broadway and one on Indiana. Happy to see some positive action.
Weekend Events
If you’re looking for fun this weekend, here’s a proposed schedule (blatantly stealing this meme from Shout Youngstown):
Friday, 7:30pm Charlie and the Chocolate Factory youth theater at the Youngstown Playhouse.
7-10pm YSU Philosophy and Religious Studies Club event at Dorian Books (802 Elm St.)
Dr. Mustansir Mir, Director of the Center for Islamic Studies, will read Sufi poetry in Arabic, translate it into English, and explain the religious and cultural meanings within the poems. Middle Eastern appetizers catered by the Phoenician Grill will be served, along with wine tasting for those old enough and so inclined.
Tickets are $15 for students; $30 for non-students.
Saturday, 10am Wick Park board up and clean up
Noon MVHS Holiday in Motion at Wick Arms museum for $1! (684 Wick Ave)
3pm Holiday Parade downtown beginning at East Federal and Andrews and ending with tree lighting in Central Square (4:30 ish).
The City of Youngstown in collaboration with First Night Youngstown will be reviving the Downtown Youngstown Holiday Parade. This tradition has somehow fallen off the radar for the past 15 years, it was once a pivotal event that showcased and highlighted Downtown Youngstown, its shops, restaurants, and cafes. Families, Downtown Employees and Friends would line the streets and wait for the parade of Musicians, Dancers, Businesses, Veteran Organizations, Non-Profit Organizations, Elected Officials, Community Groups, Theaters and Local Police and Fire Stations.
8pm How the Drag Queen Stole Christmas at the Oakland (Call for reservations!)
Sunday Noon to 5pm YSU Fine Arts Alumni Holiday Arts and Craft sale at the McDonough Museum of Modern Art (across from the Butler). Support local artists!
3pm-5pm China trip fundraiser and performance at the Oakland
Dr. Ray Beiersdorfer will be taking 15 students to China in December for the YSU class “Geology and Human History of China”…
This evening will feature the amAZING MAgic of Jason Allen (he’s cute, smart and funny AND a great magician!:-), Ray’s sideshow of science, and more!!! And OF COURSE Chinese refreshments!
Besides the entertainment, we will be pulling and announcing the winning tickets for the “raffle to defray student costs” that students have been selling!!! $10 raffle ticket for 3 chances to be a winner! $100, $75, $50 worth of goods from China (pearls, jade, brocade, silk, Tibetan artifacts, tea, etc… – your choice we will keep in touch…
SO GET YOUR WINNING TICKET!!! YOU CAN GET A ticket that night BUT don’t be late!
Check out china.ysu.edu for details about the trip…
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This morning I had a long discussion with Rev. Nevel of The Nevel’s Temple on Elm street. The congregation is interested in the Van Sickle Illinois property for parking and they have agreed to request the tax certs. from the private holders. I am drafting a letter for the Temple and will submit to them for review. The approach will also include the other Van Sickle abandoned properties.
Since this strategy was outline in the Mahoningvalley blog, there has been no feedback from any interested parties. So the understanding is that there is no effort to secure the subject properties and Temple Nevel will proceed without conflict.
If successful, Temple Nevel will offer the mansion at 264 Broadway to any party capable of restoring the structure for the legal cost of the tax forfeiture.
The group met with Lien Forward Ohio today. They stated that it will take a court order to authorize & recognize an independent appraisal in hopes of having the independent appraised value of the property be lower than the existing liens for forfeiture purposes. That appraisal would also be final. Mrs. Van Sickle initiated the foreclosure on 264 Broadway being that she owns a tax lien (not the primary holder, however). The property went to Sherriff’s sale for 2/3rd appraisal ($73,000) and received no bid. It sits in limbo until an additional tax lien holder chooses to intervene/cross claim and attempt to take to sherrif’s sale again.
Let us know how it goes. We will all be interested to learn of what luck you have had. Hopefully, it will result in success. I think we are all learning this as we go (I know I am).
Regarding the deconstruction: What are the next steps? How can individuals assist? Does this have to pass the historic review commission being that the properties are in the state recognized historic district (this is the problem that the city is running into with demolition in the neighborhood)? I’m asking. I don’t know.
I understand Phil, There is no guaranty. My approach is that unlike when Mrs. Van Sickle tried to foreclose, Broadway was newly vacated and somewhat up to code, so the value was still there. If an appraiser studies the property as is today, I have to believe, the professional will determine that the value is negative with demolition being the negative point. For example, what is the value of a house on the northside that can legally be condemned? One must factor in a demolition cost, then what remains is a northside vacant lot, what is it worth? In my real estate experience in four states, I have never heard of a current as-is appraisal denoting the value IF thousands of dollars are invested for improvment. In the case of all our forfeiture cases, the appraiser documented that the AS-IS value was lower than the tax lien. It does not matter if an improvment is on the parcel or not, value is a total figure.
In regards to deconstruction of the Nevel’s Temple property, I called D’Avignon’s office, he was on vacation but I left a message for Karen to call me back. The structures do not seem to be historic to me. Rev. Nevel tells me his congregation is ready to move anytime with volunteer labor, but we are open to help from anyone interested.
It is my understanding that Nevel’s Temple will be requesting the tax certificates to be donated to them, correct? If this is the case, will the fact that Nevel’s Temple is tax delinquent on several properties it owns and/or has tax liens against them hinder this approach or prevent them from accepting the certificates in this manner?
Both Illinois Manor (Van Sickle property) and the apartment building on Bryson fall within the Wick Park Historic District and any significant structural alterations (including demolition or deconstruction) would have to be approved by the Historic Review Commission.
http://www.cityofyoungstownoh.com/about_youngstown/youngstown_2010/neighborhoods/north/historict%20district%20-%20wick%20park.jpg
Steve, You have been the subject of a lot of debate recently, correct? I’m a little surprized that you made no comments in regards to deconstruction. So, I do not know where you are going with this recent post. If I may read between the lines, it appears that you are bringing forth obstructions rather than promotion of deconstruction. However, interpretation aside, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
I quickly refered to the auditor site and it does appear on the surface that Nevels Temple has delinquent taxes, I will speak to Rev. Nevels about it. The question that arises though is, aren’t churches exempted from property taxes like the city, in regards to property utilized by the church? The disclaimer of the auditor site reminds us that accuracy can be questioned.
I spoke with D’Avignon this morning and he stated that the church needs a demo permit, but the historic review was not needed if federal funds were not used. I will check on this though.
In any event, we will be most grateful if you intend to assist in this recent project, I read that you are quite experienced with deconstruction and we should all work together and not apart.
My read was that Steve was trying to make sure we got any obstacles out of the way first before proceeding. As I’m sure you’ve experienced, a bit of pre-planning goes a long way.
Indeed, I might add that it does not have to be Nevels Temple who request the tax certs., I disclosed that the city can do it also. The Temple has been the only one to step forward.
Concerning deconstruction of the Bryson and Park structures, the congregation shortly will start removing the alluminum siding from Park and a nonprofit in Poland is interested in building a concession structure utilizing the greek revival porch pediments from Bryson. Two pediments with the columns will make a nice 14′x 16′ concession stand. As always, we wish for the community to be assisting.
Well, here is a new update or obstruction, what ever you want to call it.
I just returned from a meeting at the city demolition department. No deconstruction can take place without an inspection and approval from the Ohio EPA. The cost for asbestos removal and inspection will make deconstruction not cost effective. So good people of the northside, we can all continue to bulldoze our way to progress and fill up the landfills with more waste.
I tried, but the walls seem to be too tall for us shrimps to climb. I’ll just return to digging more ponds, I already acquiesced with the OEPA on shrimp farming.
Asbestos is certainly a concern for deconstruction, (as is lead based paint) but pertains to demolition as well. The city pays $350 to test residential structures for asbestos. If there is no friable asbestos present, you do not need to abate.
It’s possible that you may find that there is no asbestos to be abated. Of the two pilot decons that we did over the summer, one had to be abated, and one did not.
$350 is a small price to pay to ensure that environmental regulations are being adhered to and that the health and safety of everyone involved in the project is protected.
There are a number of other “obstructions” that need to be addressed in order to make a deconstruction project viable, but it is entirely doable.
I must say that I am rather surprised with how quickly you are giving up.
So the odds are 50/50 , as a businessman, not good.
I also have a story, one of my investors had to demo three residential on commercial property, cost 9K each, a nightmare.
About giving up easily, I have a reputation of being pushy and completing things. However, I also learned that you can’t fight city hall. I’m trying to learn to pick your battles, is this the battle I need to fight?
It is not my position to “bring forth obstructions,” but rather to identify them so that they may be addressed and overcome.
Steve, I just spoke to my friend the old city demolition caontractor that I have used before. I understand that if an owner were to secure a demolition permit as with a contractor, the owner has salvage rights naturally. So like a demo contractor, he can salvage the sandstone, the fixtures, hardware, doors, wood trim, cabinets.
How about the hardwood floors? the trusses? anything that does not make friable potential asbestos. So like a demo contractor, he can demolish the ceilings and walls that are the most labor intensive part of deconstruction and haul them away. The remaining brick can also be salvaged.
So basically, like deconstruction demo salvaging has the same recycling results. Trying to salvage the walls and ceilings for the studs and joices is not practical because of the plaster and all the lathe. Am I missing anything here?
Ron,
I don’t profess to know a whole lot about this type of thing, but
would recommend having the asbestos testing done. If the test
results show that abatement will be necessary, then someone might
want to check with the Ohio EPA and see just what training, exactly,
is needed in order to become “certified” in asbestos removal.
It may only involve some training to learn about the proper use of
the equipment and protective gear. The main thing with asbestos
removal is wearing a respirator rated by the EPA to protect against the fibers, protective clothing, and keeping the work area wetted
down to keep the fibers from becoming airborne.
If the testing shows that the levels of asbestos in the plaster, etc
fall within the “safe” zone, then you can proceed with the project
right away – problem solved. If the property were to be demolished
by a contractor the same tests would have to be done regardless.
In any event, you’ll never know one way or the other unless the tests
are done. It would be a shame to pay a contractor to demo the place,
only to find out later that it wasn’t necessary.
If one or more people involved in the project could be certified at
asbestos removal without breaking the bank, then it might still be
worthwhile to proceed with the deconstruction project.
These same people, once “certified” could be put to work over and
over again to do multiple projects – thereby defraying the costs
involved in becoming “certified” at removal.
I see houses going down all over the city on a regular basis, and
I do NOT see the city removing every single bit of plaster in these
houses before demolishing them. One thing that works in your favor
is this: the building(s) will NOT be re-occupied after the work has
been done.
The row houses at Park Ave. and Bryson St. have no ceilings in their
basements, which means that the oak flooring in the downstairs floors
could easily be removed – without bringing down any plaster on the
level below (ie: basement).
Most of these old buildings have a sub-floor layer underneath the
finished oak flooring layer, which means that the building is not
structurally compromised by removing only the hardwood flooring on
top of the sub-floor.
Interior woodwork, window sashes, doors, the copper wiring (basement
only), etc. should be removable without kicking up asbestos, provided
the work is done slowly and gently. There are “oscillating” saws that
use a special blade to cut through the nails behind woodwork and under
flooring without damaging the wood and without knocking the plaster
off the walls.
Allan,
You know more than most people in regards to real estate. It seems that your stay in Youngstown was productive, have a safe trip home.
The approach I have to recommend to Temple Nevels, is demolition. Risking a runaway cost if asbestos is found is not financially healthy. Yes, your observation of houses being demo’d without asbestos removal is correct and is the majority. As I studied, salvage thru demolition will produce the same results and unless there is a true market, meaning a buyer willing to pay for all the material “upfront” , then the existing process of demo/salvage is the only cost effective solution to our abandoned structure crisis.
Deconstruction, although a novel and green theory, can only again become acceptable in practice if a market is established that can consume the material at once. With the present day collapse of construction, this method is further challenged.